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Car weight vs downforce vs speed

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14Smokem

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:12 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

stuntguy13 wrote: Second, parts are not parts. If I were a sponsor I would have my own person checking what the quality of parts were that are going to my team not just a pool of parts.

Bottom line is that SHR needs to step up and get this stuff right.


OK Stunt guy.... One point at a time.

I have had the privilege, to have personal friends on many types of top tier race teams nationally.

So, I used the shock issue in an earlier post for a specific reason.
The shock guys assemble the shocks. They dyno test them. They attach the
results to each shock. Depending on demand they do multiples of those
most requested. They hand them over to the parts room. The parts room
stocks them on shelves, and dole them out as requested.

The crew chief tells the parts guy the specs he wants, and the parts guy pulls
the part. The crew chief can request the entire list, if he desires, and pick
whichever one he feels will fill his need best.

So............ Let's just assume, that the one he wants is not there......
simple.... the shock guys will build him what he wants.......... AND.....
IF..... he wants to know what Harvick is running.... no sweat....
IF he wants exactly what Harvick is running.... no prob.... shock guys
will build them for him.......... TWENTY of them if he wants.

You are right.... parts ain't parts..... but this is not NAPA. He can have
exactly what he wants, he could even request said shock in lavender,
if he thought it would help.

Danica is getting everything and anything her team wants for her.
She has engineer(s) who are in tune with Racing, not building bridges
or high rises. She lacks for NOTHING.

Please know this applies to virtually ANY top tier team, for ANY
of their drivers.

I'll have an ear to the ground for the next issue.....

As I stated before.... it is her Sophomore year....
Montoya, in all his time in NASCAR NEVER had an oval win...!!!!
1994 USAC Midget Champion ** 1995 USAC Midget Champion ** 1995 USAC Sprint Car Champion ** 1995 USAC Silver Crown Champion
1997 Indy Car Champion ** 2006 IROC Champion ** 2002 NASCAR Champion ** 2005 NASCAR Champion ** 2011 NASCAR Champion
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stuntguy13

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:31 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

ABE,
First, Happy Easter to all.

Interesting that you should bring up the 3 wins - 2 were Kevin who has been fast consistently. Kurt has had some fast cars but not consistent. Tony has been all over the place. On weight it was pointed out that the lowest weight that NASCAR requires added weight is 150 lbs, below that it is the same amount of added weight. They don't say the driver plus car need to weight a specific amount only that for each driver weight bracket you add a set amount of weight. What is not clear is if it is a set amount or a minimum amount of weight that can be added.

Grip is achieved buy either mechanical weight pushing the car onto the track or aero downforce pushing the car down. The problem with weight to some extent is you have to decelerate it going into the turn and accelerate it coming out but there is likely a sweet spot for these gen 6 cars. The problem with aero is it varies with speed and holds the car back (from drag) in the straights. NASCAR created this situation by have the rules so tight there is very little room to make up for any weakness in a particular car. Teams can't test enough so they have to do this with computer models and simulator. It is an engineering exercise. This is why the drive can't do much if the car is not "on". It was mentioned that Mark Martin is 125lbs, he knows how to adjust these cars and win. However, when they put him in Tony's car last year he struggled, it was the car not the driver.

I know you feel that SHR has a talented staff of engineers and CC's and I agree they do. The problem is with the rules so tight they have the responsibility to deliver a fast car. On the track the drive can only make moves that the car has in it. The driver also has responsibility to drive smart and get in and out of the pits clean (this is one place that the driver has control above all others).

The hope of this discussion is not for us to solve the problems. None of us are privy to the engineering meetings, driver meets or business meeting. The hope is to have someone with authority in SHR read this and say did we look at this, should we try something different from conventional thinking. Is are quality control program as good as it should be. The point being not to defend the current process but to question it and look to move forward with a stronger approach.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

stuntguy13 wrote:14Smokem,

I agree with what you say. I don't know if the teams read any of this stuff or if one of the engineers on the team would ever reply to us but on the off chance that they do look I thought an out of the box look at why Danica has been slower at some tracks might get some thinking going. I know these guys are suppose to be the Pros and know what they are doing. However, I am and engineer by training and also know that sometimes you get tunnel vision. The old "this is the way we did it for 10 years" syndrome.

Danica can drive these things if given the "good stuff" and she will win. Parts are not parts, there are always some that are really good, some are OK but some are outstanding, those are the ones she needs and the crew chief needs to make sure he gets them for her. She needs to have the "whole team" not just Tony, wanting to have her win. Tony needs to be checking that the engineering team is giving her (and him also) the good parts. Seems Kevin's team is able to give him the good stuff, need to share information better on this team.

For SHR as a business decision they need to recognize what her winning will do for the SHR team and NASCAR. When they get her running in the top 5 consistently on the mile and a half's it will start to pay off. GIVE HER THE GOOD STUFF.

Danica is never gonna win. Not by out running other teams & taking the lead. Maybe by rain, fuel or possibly a plate race, but not by any traditional sense. She is simply a subpar talent in a stock car. To compare her to harvick is just ridiculous. Reason why Harvick is & will always be better than her, is because he has light years more talent in a stock car than her. She is not getting bad parts or equipment. The only thing a Danica fan could possibly complain about is her CC. BUT SHR probably isn't gonna waste a talented CC on her until she learns enough about Stock Car racing. Which seems to be learning at a snails pace, no matter what you hear from TV land.

As far as a disadvantage for being lighter. No such thing. you can go from the top of racing series to the very bottom of a local racing series. Being light is never a disadvantage especially on a paved track. Which is why every series has a min. weight requirement. Now Nascar does all it can to limit any actual advantage for light drivers vs. Heavy ones. So I doubt she has much advantage, or atleast not enough to worry about, but she definitely isn't at a disadvantage. In my entire life around race cars & racing in general have I heard someone (anyone) say Man, I wish we had a heavier driver!
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michaeljohn

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed




Danica is getting everything and anything her team wants for her.
She has engineer(s) who are in tune with Racing, not building bridges
or high rises. She lacks for NOTHING.



they may not be building bridges, but she drivers like she is hauling a bridge :D
I will miss you Frehley........
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stuntguy13

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

Schmoopy1000,
No one is comparing Danica to Kevin what I am saying is look at the "team" performance. Kevin's CC/engineers have something figured out that Tony, Kurt and Danica's CC/engineers don't. SHR needs a good Six Sigma program to get all the drivers running.

You seem to be very certain that you know everything about what is happening in racing. Things that apply in back in the day don't today. The rules are very tight and things that allowed a driver/team make up for a weakness in one area by being strong in another aren't possible with the current rules package. The teams can't "cut and try" they have to know what works from solid engineering. Given a good car all the CUP drivers could run up front. The problems at SHR are engineering/setup problems not drivers.

Look, if it were all driver Jimmy Johnson would win every week, he doesn't. Go back and look at some of the senior drivers that dominated Cup and you will see it was a driver/CC team that worked. When that team was broken up the driver no longer dominated. Look at Jeff Gordon, Dale Jr. they are still great drivers but the "special team" is not there (Dale is getting close this year).

You obviously won't look at facts or data and are not man enough to see a woman run strong in CUP.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:05 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

stuntguy13 wrote:Schmoopy1000,
No one is comparing Danica to Kevin what I am saying is look at the "team" performance. Kevin's CC/engineers have something figured out that Tony, Kurt and Danica's CC/engineers don't. SHR needs a good Six Sigma program to get all the drivers running.

You seem to be very certain that you know everything about what is happening in racing. Things that apply in back in the day don't today. The rules are very tight and things that allowed a driver/team make up for a weakness in one area by being strong in another aren't possible with the current rules package. The teams can't "cut and try" they have to know what works from solid engineering. Given a good car all the CUP drivers could run up front. The problems at SHR are engineering/setup problems not drivers.

Look, if it were all driver Jimmy Johnson would win every week, he doesn't. Go back and look at some of the senior drivers that dominated Cup and you will see it was a driver/CC team that worked. When that team was broken up the driver no longer dominated. Look at Jeff Gordon, Dale Jr. they are still great drivers but the "special team" is not there (Dale is getting close this year).

You obviously won't look at facts or data and are not man enough to see a woman run strong in CUP.

so being honest about a drivers skills, means I am a woman hater?
I grant you the #10 team is not a championship caliber team, but they are not a back filler caliber team either. I have been paying attention to drivers practically my whole life. I am well aware of it taking a good team & a good driver to make success with a little thing called Chemistry. I have seen many good drivers on crappy teams & give them drivers credit. If you put Danica with the 4 team & all the advantages you claim they have. She still wouldn't win. This is the hard cold reality. Would I like for her or any woman to kick A$S in racing? HeII yeah I would like for that to happen, but I wont make excuses if their talent level isn't there to do so. All information at SHR is available to all teams at SHR. All types of parts is available to SHR. As far as the CC. I agree he is weak, but all the teams meet all through the week to help all the teams. 3 crew chiefs don't sit over in a corner laughing at TG for not knowing something. They all give input to try & help all four teams. Only time Danica is screwed by having TG as her CC is during the race, when they are on their own. Anytime before that she or any of the 10 team can go talk to anyone from the other teams. Its not a conspiracy against Danica because she is a girl.

Listen to her radio sometime. She still asks questions like if she has never sat in a stock car sometimes. Funny how you want to call me out on the understanding of team. I am one of the ones that has always said it drives me nuts when people use stats only to measure who is better than who in racing (or any sport for that matter)
I think it is becoming a lost art form of studying drivers ability vs. drivers success. (two different things)

BTW for your information.
The rules packages are to make competition closer. So I am with you on opening up some of those rules & let them race. Problem is that would make Danica look even worse. What will happen is you will see more driver input in the cars drivability. Those drivers that can wheel a race car would be even faster & the spread from the top to the mediocre would be a much larger margin. They would be capable of driving more aggressive suspension packages to be faster where as the weaker drivers would wreck with. There is a reason nascar dumb down the cars as I say. So those that aren't a top 15 driver don't get lapped so fast!

I honestly hope the best for Danica. I just don't make up $h!t when she doesn't produce. I also wish she could get rid of her CC, so she could sink or swim with that being her last excuse.

So I am more than aware of all the things that worked back in the day vs. nowadays, but you know what teams still need the same from back then & now? A talented driver. SHR equipment is all the same for all four teams. The information is all the same for all four teams.

If you want to blame Chemistry. Go ahead, but if you believe Danica, she says the chemistry between her & TG is great.
you can blame the CC on race day but not before (I would)
you can blame the driver
but you cant blame Weight of a driver, you cant blame the equipment or the engineering unless you were blaming it for all four teams.

So lets look at the drivers
Kevin Harvick is simply being a badA$S right now. Even his bad finishes he was freaky fast.
Kurt Busch shows signs of fast but is inconsistent, but if again someone wants to be honest knows that is Kurts driving style through out his whole career. (I know Kurt fans wont want to agree)
Tony Stewart is working his way back into racing shape, but has never typically been a strong starter with new rules.
Danica is driving right where she has been her whole cup career. towards the back taking care of her equipment.
I see SHR right where I would expect them to be, except Harvick started off much better than I expected & didn't expect Kurt to win so fast (thanks to the 15 team)

but I guess we can just blame it on me woman hating with that pesky realistic view on drivers.
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michaeljohn

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Post Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:31 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

been down this road many of times, just because some questions danica's ability does not mean they hate women drivers, in fact all of us who question her ability consider her just a driver, the only people that bring up the fact she is a woman are her fans, to me its a quick excuse to use to deflect.
I will miss you Frehley........
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14Smokem

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:18 am

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

Again....?????

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stuntguy13

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:23 am

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

Schmoopy1000,
As you pointed out the SHR teams are not consistent. This has been going on since last year. I don't blame chemistry. For me it is the ability to analysis the conditions and adjust. Problem is they seem to unload way off the mark. You mention Kevin being fast, when he came to SHR he insisted that they bring his CC. Race people are great people but they want to win. Getting all the information about what they do is not easy. They may give general stuff and sometimes it will help but they look at data and will do things that aren't shared. That's just the competitive sprit. Because the rules are so tight things that seem unimportant or minor can have an impact.

I believe that engineers can get tunnel vision and the "not invented here" syndrome. This can keep them in a rut looking at the same data and not finding any way to change. I am sure all the people at SHR are smart, capable people, however they need to look outside the box to get all the teams running consistently. I grant you that Danica is still learning stock cars but the rest of the teams are not all running in the top 5 every week either. Once they get out of the tunnel think we will see how the rest of the season unfolds.
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Anyone But Earnhardt

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:25 am

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

OK,

First off this is fun! 3/8 this season. Mediocre Equipment? Really. 3 out of 8!!!!!!!

Kevin is a good driver with fast cars because he can drive.

Kurt , as schmoopy said, It is his driving style. I am a Kurt fan and honestly believe he has a ton of talent, but look at Darlington. He was getting better and better as the race went on and saw an opening, passed about four or five cars on a move not just anyone can make especially at darlington. That is called talent. But Bowyer then dumped him. Checkers or Wreckers. 1 win this year.

Tony, Enough said, do you really think this guy won't win? 3 time champ. It's going to happen. HE started the year at 65% health.

Danica, same cars, same data, different results. Usually laps down and bringing out cautions. Last year Tony told her to move out of the way or he was going to wreck her on the radio. This year Kevin already has threatened to do the same. Not because she is a woman, but because she is in the way.

Can you imagine the four of them (Tony/Kurt/Kevin/Danica) sitting around comparing things and everytime she says something that awkward moment of silence happens. Yeah run that through your head right now. Hear the crickets??? THE guys are bragging about there trophies and once again crickets? Think about last year a minute. KUrt in the 78 made the chase in inferior equipment. WHY? Talent.

Anyway this is Racing and Talent no need to 5S and Six Sigma the SHR team. Forget the LEAN process. It's simple. GEt in the car and drive.

A.B.E.
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smoke14rulez

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:35 am

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

I think the thing that's bein' overlooked is that it's more than just weight/downforce that makes a car go fast. Thinkin' back to when the Gibbs cars were the dominant pieces in Nationwide, particularly around '08, it was because they hit on something in the front suspension geometry that made the cars roll the center better than the rest of the field. Tony even commented at the time that it "wasn't the drivers", it was the cars. If I recall, in '11 just before the Chase, Darian hit on something in the front end that likewise helped the cars cut the center and thus carry more speed...and we see how that turned out... ;) Point being, it's front end, shocks, springs...etc., AND how they're adjusted FOR the SPECIFIC DRIVER'S liking that make a car fast, not just downforce.

Childers has just figured out what Kevin needs(SPECIFICALLY to Kevin) to make the car "feel right". Happens faster with some CC/drivers, slower with others and not at all with others...that's where your "chemistry" comes in.

As far as Danica goes, she still suffers from "open wheelers syndrome". Those who come up STRICTLY on "high grip", asphalt road course are at a disadvantage in Cup type cars. They're not used to these cars weight, higher center of gravity and more "active" suspensions. They have to learn how to get "comfortable" with a car that bounces and slides in the corners, they've never had that experience in they're open wheel upbringing. THAT'S why you can't compare Tony with the other "open wheelers" because he spent as much time slidin' high HP/low grip cars sideways around dirt tracks as he did in shifter carts/open wheel cars on asphalt...probably more...thus an easier transition.

I think what Danica need is to go to Eldora every week and run sprints/modifieds/late models until she gets the feel for(and more importantly gets COMFORTABLE) driving a car sideways. I think it'd do her some good. ;)
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:25 pm

Re: Car weight vs downforce vs speed

stuntguy13 wrote:Schmoopy1000,
As you pointed out the SHR teams are not consistent. This has been going on since last year. I don't blame chemistry. For me it is the ability to analysis the conditions and adjust. Problem is they seem to unload way off the mark. You mention Kevin being fast, when he came to SHR he insisted that they bring his CC. Race people are great people but they want to win. Getting all the information about what they do is not easy. They may give general stuff and sometimes it will help but they look at data and will do things that aren't shared. That's just the competitive sprit. Because the rules are so tight things that seem unimportant or minor can have an impact.

I believe that engineers can get tunnel vision and the "not invented here" syndrome. This can keep them in a rut looking at the same data and not finding any way to change. I am sure all the people at SHR are smart, capable people, however they need to look outside the box to get all the teams running consistently. I grant you that Danica is still learning stock cars but the rest of the teams are not all running in the top 5 every week either. Once they get out of the tunnel think we will see how the rest of the season unfolds.

I can agree with just about all of this. SHR has never been consistent. The most consistent they ever been was the 10 race run Tony had to win the championship, but if you looked at the 1st 26 of that year, they werent consistent. Only thing I say different is they didnt bring Kevin's CC (that was Gil Martin) they picked Childers who was the 55's CC at the time of hiring.
Fully agree with you though that SHR has never been consistent.
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