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The Flaws of Nascar points system.

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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:43 am

The Flaws of Nascar points system.

I am going to use my most disliked driver & one of my favorite drivers (to show impartialism) , to show how screwed up Nascar points system is.

Joey Logano has a win & 4 top 5's in 8 races. Half the races he has finished in the top 5! but he also has one DNF.

Ryan Newman has zero wins & zero top5's, but also has zero DNF's

Joey Logano is 8th in points 52 back from points leader
Ryan Newman is 9th in points 61 points back.

What does this show?
It takes a lot of good finishes to counter a bad finish.

Points Systems should reward good finishes way more than punish for a bad finish. You don't need all these gimmicks to try & fabricate close points battles. Just use a proper points system.
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Jellikit

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:53 am

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

I'm just wondering how this plays out over a season. Does that one DNF continue to diminish in importance? :?
Take Harvick for example. Before last week's win, he wouldn't have made the chase if it ended there, or even if he ran mediocre to good the rest of the season. Yet, they say "one win and you're in." If he never had another win, and he had all those horrible finishes early in the season, would there be a "number" of top 5s or top 10s to get him back in? No idea, but I agree, the new system doesn't seem to be set up properly.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:44 am

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

Jellikit wrote:I'm just wondering how this plays out over a season. Does that one DNF continue to diminish in importance? :?
Take Harvick for example. Before last week's win, he wouldn't have made the chase if it ended there, or even if he ran mediocre to good the rest of the season. Yet, they say "one win and you're in." If he never had another win, and he had all those horrible finishes early in the season, would there be a "number" of top 5s or top 10s to get him back in? No idea, but I agree, the new system doesn't seem to be set up properly.

well look at Harvick for an example.
he has 2 wins, but also has 2 DNFs. He isn't even in the top 20 in points sitting 22nd. he is 9th in my points system. In fact he is 9th in all three points systems I am tracking this year.
Logano is 7th, 4th & 5th.
Ryan is 18th, 14th & 17th.
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racer1

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:01 am

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

Nascar has said as long as the winning driver is at least 30th in points then he could be in the chase, but wouldn't it be funny or sad if say a winning driver had problems like Hamlin last yr or Tony being injured & missed enough races so he wasn't top 30 to get into the Chase even like Harvick now with his 2 wins? Also what good does it do a driver to win lots of races when for the last segment of the chase, ALL the points reset anyway? Therefore a driver whos lucky to finish well every race even without a win, COULD win it ALL over a winning driver, so this crap about "winning is everything"-- is flawed under this new system? :roll:

I think that Nascar only has one mission this yr & that's to get a certain driver a championship--end of story-- my thoughts anyway? :roll:
Last edited by racer1 on Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:35 am

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

racer1 wrote:Nascar has said as long as the winning driver is at least 30th in points then he could be in the chase, but wouldn't it be funny or sad if say a winning driver had problems like Hamlin last yr or Tony being injured & missed enough races so he wasn't top 30 to get into the Chase even like Harvick now with his 2 wins? Also what good does it do a driver to win lots of races when for the last segment of the chase, ALL the points reset anyway? Therefore a driver whos lucky to finish well every race even without a win, COULD win it ALL over a winning driver, so this crap about "winning is everything"-- is flawed under this new system? :roll:

I think that Nascar only has one mission this yr & that's to get a certain driver a championship--end of story-- my thoughts anyway? :roll:

well I am talking about the actual "point" system nascar uses, not the rules for the chase.

The Chase is dumb anyways in any format. Doesnt belong in racing, but the win & your in mentality is flat out stupid. It is impossible to finish outside the top 30 unless you are a part time team. Even with Denny missing over a month he finished 23rd, & Tony who missed 15 races, was 29th. There is only like 27 or 28 full time major(ish) teams in Nascar.
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Searchers

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:50 am

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

racer1 wrote:I think that Nascar only has one mission this yr & that's to get a certain driver a championship--end of story-- my thoughts anyway? :roll:


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ndunn

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:54 am

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

racer 1, I think you have some thoughts that make sense. The fuss made over the Daytona winner going for the championship after the first race is crazy.I know the guy is popular but he is not the only racer out there. Has NASCAR forgotten that in 2011 Tony had a sort of semi decent record until the chase and then all he$$ breaks loose. But he didn't have that championship until those tires and the nose of the car ran over the checkers first. Nascar shouldn't have to play voodoo to make sure their darling gets a championship.
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Searchers

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:01 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

ndunn wrote:racer 1, I think you have some thoughts that make sense. The fuss made over the Daytona winner going for the championship after the first race is crazy.I know the guy is popular but he is not the only racer out there. Has NASCAR forgotten that in 2011 Tony had a sort of semi decent record until the chase and then all he$$ breaks loose. But he didn't have that championship until those tires and the nose of the car ran over the checkers first. Nascar shouldn't have to play voodoo to make sure their darling gets a championship.



But Nascar didn't make the fuss, the media did. How could Nascar have even known he would win the 500 when they set up that system?

I think this years system zucks too. But hardly think it was engineered over the off season to deliver a championship to one driver. That type of conspiracy thinking is too far out there for me to easily accept. Especially since that driver had not won a race for a few years.
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racer1

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:15 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

"Even with Denny missing over a month he finished 23rd, & Tony who missed 15 races, was 29th. There is only like 27 or 28 full time major(ish) teams in Nascar."

That's was in yrs past as I believe that's changed this yr with so many low funded teams finding speed & running well finishing the entire race & some with good results? Even the Nascar guys have stated we haven't saw hardly any S&P drivers drop out after a few laps as in yrs past? Besides look where the majority of SHR drivers are in points as 3 of them are out of the top 20 already and 2 of them ARE winning drivers this yr? Iam just saying from what we are seeing this yr anything is possible, esp if ENOUGH trouble finds a winning driver? However, the odds of a driver good enough to win yet not make top 30 after 26 races may be highly unlikely-- but not impossible--just saying? :roll:

"The Chase is dumb anyways in any format"

Ditto. :lol:
Last edited by racer1 on Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:23 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

Searchers wrote:
ndunn wrote:racer 1, I think you have some thoughts that make sense. The fuss made over the Daytona winner going for the championship after the first race is crazy.I know the guy is popular but he is not the only racer out there. Has NASCAR forgotten that in 2011 Tony had a sort of semi decent record until the chase and then all he$$ breaks loose. But he didn't have that championship until those tires and the nose of the car ran over the checkers first. Nascar shouldn't have to play voodoo to make sure their darling gets a championship.



But Nascar didn't make the fuss, the media did. How could Nascar have even known he would win the 500 when they set up that system?

I think this years system zucks too. But hardly think it was engineered over the off season to deliver a championship to one driver. That type of conspiracy thinking is too far out there for me to easily accept. Especially since that driver had not won a race for a few years.

well I agree & disagree with this post.
the media swoons over whatever Nascar tells them to swoon over (which is why all you hear is how great this new system is) Which means aanytime they have a chance to promote Dale Jr. they will.
If there is a conspiracy theory about why the new system wass put in place, it would be how to stop the 48. Not make the 88 champ. I mean the 88 wasnt exactly winning a ton of races when they implimented this system. Personally I dont think there is a conspiracy theory, I just think France is a complete Dumb@$S!
I think if the points system wasnt so flawed, they wouldnt need........ well who am I foolin', they never needed the chase.
there are usually 12 - 15 teams that can consistently get quality finishes, whioch leads to the luck of who doesnt get DNF's to crown the winners. So like my point is. Dont make DNF's so damaging & you would see those that are performing the best at the top of the points & usually makes for tighter points championships. If there is a team that flat dominates a season, doesnt matter what type of points system is in place, they would make the final weeks noneventful for the championship, but I think it is stupid to try & figure out a way to rob that team of the championship, just to be able to use the word "exciting". They put forth what? Over 30 mil. to try & earn a Championship, & all so Nascar can gimmick them out of it?

Could you image that happening at the local series, where all the money used is there own personal money. Hey you did a great job running away with the championship. Thanks, but now we are gonna reset the points & let it be a free for all in the final race. How "exciting" is this gonna be!
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Searchers

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:29 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

Schmoopy1000 wrote:
Searchers wrote:
ndunn wrote:racer 1, I think you have some thoughts that make sense. The fuss made over the Daytona winner going for the championship after the first race is crazy.I know the guy is popular but he is not the only racer out there. Has NASCAR forgotten that in 2011 Tony had a sort of semi decent record until the chase and then all he$$ breaks loose. But he didn't have that championship until those tires and the nose of the car ran over the checkers first. Nascar shouldn't have to play voodoo to make sure their darling gets a championship.



But Nascar didn't make the fuss, the media did. How could Nascar have even known he would win the 500 when they set up that system?

I think this years system zucks too. But hardly think it was engineered over the off season to deliver a championship to one driver. That type of conspiracy thinking is too far out there for me to easily accept. Especially since that driver had not won a race for a few years.

well I agree & disagree with this post.
the media swoons over whatever Nascar tells them to swoon over (which is why all you hear is how great this new system is) Which means aanytime they have a chance to promote Dale Jr. they will.
If there is a conspiracy theory about why the new system wass put in place, it would be how to stop the 48. Not make the 88 champ. I mean the 88 wasnt exactly winning a ton of races when they implimented this system. Personally I dont think there is a conspiracy theory, I just think France is a complete Dumb@$S!
I think if the points system wasnt so flawed, they wouldnt need........ well who am I foolin', they never needed the chase.
there are usually 12 - 15 teams that can consistently get quality finishes, whioch leads to the luck of who doesnt get DNF's to crown the winners. So like my point is. Dont make DNF's so damaging & you would see those that are performing the best at the top of the points & usually makes for tighter points championships. If there is a team that flat dominates a season, doesnt matter what type of points system is in place, they would make the final weeks noneventful for the championship, but I think it is stupid to try & figure out a way to rob that team of the championship, just to be able to use the word "exciting". They put forth what? Over 30 mil. to try & earn a Championship, & all so Nascar can gimmick them out of it?

Could you image that happening at the local series, where all the money used is there own personal money. Hey you did a great job running away with the championship. Thanks, but now we are gonna reset the points & let it be a free for all in the final race. How "exciting" is this gonna be!



Brian France and his supporters are not actually Nascar fans and so do not understand how a fan looks at performance history in picking a champion.
France is looking for gimmicks and if he could would pick his champions in advance, but so far has not mastered that technique.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

racer1 wrote:"Even with Denny missing over a month he finished 23rd, & Tony who missed 15 races, was 29th. There is only like 27 or 28 full time major(ish) teams in Nascar."

That's was in yrs past as I believe that's changed this yr with so many low funded teams finding speed & running well finishing the entire race & some with good results? Even the Nascar guys have stated we haven't saw hardly any S&P drivers drop out after a few laps as in yrs past? Besides look where the majority of SHR drivers are in points as 3 of them are out of the top 20 already and 2 of them ARE winning drivers this yr? Iam just saying from what we are seeing this yr anything is possible, esp if ENOUGH trouble finds a winning driver? However, the odds of a driver good enough to win yet not make top 30 after 26 races may be highly unlikely-- but not impossible--just saying? :roll:

"The Chase is dumb anyways in any format"

Ditto. :lol:

years past? this was last year. you know 9 races ago!

ok so lets look aat this year.
Danica who has beeen horrible is 29th in points, but 20 (half a race) ahead of 30th.
you have 2 drivers who some might say are over acheiving right now. Mears & Allgaier, but for your side of the argument, lets say they dont fall off, & teams are much improved. still makes only 29 teams.
30th is gilliland in a front row car
31st is Reed in a tommy baldwin car
32nd is Ragan front row
33rd is Cole Whitt Swan Racing
34th is Annett in Tommy Baldwin
35th is Bowman BK Racing
36th is Wise in Phil Parsons Racing
37th is Kvapil in FAS Lane racing
38th is Parker Klingerman in Swan Racing
39th is Ryan Truex in BK Racing
also will point out only 35 drivers has started every race this season.
So yes I guess if Kurt or Harvick missed 25 races they could fall out of the top 30 in points so you are correct. It isnt imposssible. True the start & parkers may actually be racing now, but it is still for the same positions. Danica Patrick could struggle the whole season & stay in the top 30 in points. So say she gets lucky & wins a plate race, she would be in the chase! So I will rephrase & say. "virtually impossible to be more precise. Although I will say barring injury/losing ride completely impossible for the winner to fall out of the top 30 if you are one of the major(ish) teams.
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michaeljohn

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:55 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

the point system is fine, 1 point per position is the way it should be, every driver is in the same box... Joe is having a really nice year so far, Penske is turning out some fast cars.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:12 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

michaeljohn wrote:the point system is fine, 1 point per position is the way it should be, every driver is in the same box... Joe is having a really nice year so far, Penske is turning out some fast cars.

every driver is in the same box no matter what point system is used. or ph#cked up rules France puts in place.

Joey is having an excellent season so far. Way better than Ryan, but the points dont show that.
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michaeljohn

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Post Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:27 pm

Re: The Flaws of Nascar points system.

the points are so close at the beginning of the year that they dont normally dictate what is going on, and the only thing messed up about this year, is you win and your in, if harvick stays in the 20's and makes t in the chase, to me that is b.s. nothing against harvick, but this going to make teams rethink how they race, just like 2 yrs ago in the all start race when JJ won, he won the first segment and drove around the back not pushing his car, wasnt his fault, its what nascar set up for rules, things wont get better, they will continually get worse and the win your in theory is the first dagger, well maybe not the first, 4th or 5th dagger.
I miss you Frehley........
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