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Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to Chase

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Schmoopy1000

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Post Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

KMOAutobahn wrote:Honestly, I can see what NASCAR's motivation was and applaud them for taking action to 'set things right'. However, (and I was pretty steadfast in this) I thought it was wrong for them to retroactively add/remove drivers from the chase in the first place. By doing so, NASCAR played revisionist history and opened up alot of what-ifs; are we certain that Ryan Newman wouldve won the race with 9 laps to go? or that Martin Truex wouldnt have raced his way in anyways? In going back and revising the standings based on the richmond race, NASCAR complete disrespected the results of the actual racing itself.

I was of the opinion that they shouldve kept the chase field as the race results dictated it, but shouldve punished MWR and Penske AFTER the points reset (levying heavy-a** penalties too, like 100 point deductions from all the MWR cars and Penske cars). That way, the results of the race are respected and preserved, and at the same time, you've set a HEAVY deterrent by effectively knocking all the cheater cars out of contention.

EDIT: my proposal might not be the most popular one because it means that ryan newman misses the chase in this scenario, but who's to say he doesnt cut down a tire with 3 to go?

Oh Please. Ryan took the lead & was pulling away. he had zero tire issues all night & no one cut a tire the last 10 laps of the race so there was obviously nothing on the track to cut a tire. Without the Yellow everyone knew he was gonna win that race. Which would have meant, Truex could have raced his way up to 2nd & still wouldn't have made the chase. Ryan & Kasey both would have had 2 wins each. Logano couldn't gain any more spots, so he wouldn't have made the top ten which meant he wouldn't have made the chase anyways. You could stretch the what if's pretty far to say you never know what would have happened, but logically we all know how it would have turned out.

As far as levying penalties after the chase is set. What good would the rules be? All bubble cars would cheat to make their cars better so they could at least get into the chase. Rules should deter teams from cheating. Not say go ahead we will allow your cheating to be rewarded with a chase birth. Honestly if you want to keep those that clinch a chase spot from doing cheating things at the end of a reg. season. Penalize both before the chase is set & in the chase. They did it to Carl Edwards a couple years back (wasnt the last race of reg. season though) Took points away from him during the reg. season & they took 3 points from him in the chase. if he made the chase. I just have to disagree with you. not just because I am a Ryan fan, but because you cant allow teams to cheat their way into the chase (playoffs) That would be my stance even if Tony spun out on purpose to get Ryan in the chase.
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KMOAutobahn

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Post Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

Schmoopy1000 wrote:
KMOAutobahn wrote:Honestly, I can see what NASCAR's motivation was and applaud them for taking action to 'set things right'. However, (and I was pretty steadfast in this) I thought it was wrong for them to retroactively add/remove drivers from the chase in the first place. By doing so, NASCAR played revisionist history and opened up alot of what-ifs; are we certain that Ryan Newman wouldve won the race with 9 laps to go? or that Martin Truex wouldnt have raced his way in anyways? In going back and revising the standings based on the richmond race, NASCAR complete disrespected the results of the actual racing itself.

I was of the opinion that they shouldve kept the chase field as the race results dictated it, but shouldve punished MWR and Penske AFTER the points reset (levying heavy-a** penalties too, like 100 point deductions from all the MWR cars and Penske cars). That way, the results of the race are respected and preserved, and at the same time, you've set a HEAVY deterrent by effectively knocking all the cheater cars out of contention.

EDIT: my proposal might not be the most popular one because it means that ryan newman misses the chase in this scenario, but who's to say he doesnt cut down a tire with 3 to go?

Oh Please. Ryan took the lead & was pulling away. he had zero tire issues all night & no one cut a tire the last 10 laps of the race so there was obviously nothing on the track to cut a tire. Without the Yellow everyone knew he was gonna win that race. Which would have meant, Truex could have raced his way up to 2nd & still wouldn't have made the chase. Ryan & Kasey both would have had 2 wins each. Logano couldn't gain any more spots, so he wouldn't have made the top ten which meant he wouldn't have made the chase anyways. You could stretch the what if's pretty far to say you never know what would have happened, but logically we all know how it would have turned out.

As far as levying penalties after the chase is set. What good would the rules be? All bubble cars would cheat to make their cars better so they could at least get into the chase. Rules should deter teams from cheating. Not say go ahead we will allow your cheating to be rewarded with a chase birth. Honestly if you want to keep those that clinch a chase spot from doing cheating things at the end of a reg. season. Penalize both before the chase is set & in the chase. They did it to Carl Edwards a couple years back (wasnt the last race of reg. season though) Took points away from him during the reg. season & they took 3 points from him in the chase. if he made the chase. I just have to disagree with you. not just because I am a Ryan fan, but because you cant allow teams to cheat their way into the chase (playoffs) That would be my stance even if Tony spun out on purpose to get Ryan in the chase.


That was just a hypothetical, schmoopy. :roll: And I don't think even the most hardcore ryan newman fan would be naive enough to assume that ryan was winning the race with 100% certainty with 9 laps to go. anything could've happened, but nobody will ever know for sure. Even ryan's first reaction after the race was that the team blew it rather than 'OMG WE WERE ROBBED'

so my point with the penalties is that when you're dealing with razor thin margin differences and gray area judgement calls, can YOU honestly make the determination on how the results WOULD'VE stacked up? or do you go with what's on the results sheet?

If you're concerned with the fact that the cheaters get rewarded for manipulation, then just vacate the spots and strip all their owner points. They get no chase coverage and their sponsors get all the bad pub. Is that punishment enough?

On a side note, are we so quick to label martin truex jr a 'cheater' despite the fact that he could have just been a blind beneficiary? Now that a 'cheater' like logano got to keep his spot, a lot of people can make the argument that martin truex got shafted because he was in a similar situation. Are we going to start letting in 14 cars in now? When NASCAR decided they could pass the judgement on the hypothetical and start awarding spots based where drivers MIGHT'VE finished, they opened up a pandora's box.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:55 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

KMOAutobahn wrote:
Schmoopy1000 wrote:
KMOAutobahn wrote:Honestly, I can see what NASCAR's motivation was and applaud them for taking action to 'set things right'. However, (and I was pretty steadfast in this) I thought it was wrong for them to retroactively add/remove drivers from the chase in the first place. By doing so, NASCAR played revisionist history and opened up alot of what-ifs; are we certain that Ryan Newman wouldve won the race with 9 laps to go? or that Martin Truex wouldnt have raced his way in anyways? In going back and revising the standings based on the richmond race, NASCAR complete disrespected the results of the actual racing itself.

I was of the opinion that they shouldve kept the chase field as the race results dictated it, but shouldve punished MWR and Penske AFTER the points reset (levying heavy-a** penalties too, like 100 point deductions from all the MWR cars and Penske cars). That way, the results of the race are respected and preserved, and at the same time, you've set a HEAVY deterrent by effectively knocking all the cheater cars out of contention.

EDIT: my proposal might not be the most popular one because it means that ryan newman misses the chase in this scenario, but who's to say he doesnt cut down a tire with 3 to go?

Oh Please. Ryan took the lead & was pulling away. he had zero tire issues all night & no one cut a tire the last 10 laps of the race so there was obviously nothing on the track to cut a tire. Without the Yellow everyone knew he was gonna win that race. Which would have meant, Truex could have raced his way up to 2nd & still wouldn't have made the chase. Ryan & Kasey both would have had 2 wins each. Logano couldn't gain any more spots, so he wouldn't have made the top ten which meant he wouldn't have made the chase anyways. You could stretch the what if's pretty far to say you never know what would have happened, but logically we all know how it would have turned out.

As far as levying penalties after the chase is set. What good would the rules be? All bubble cars would cheat to make their cars better so they could at least get into the chase. Rules should deter teams from cheating. Not say go ahead we will allow your cheating to be rewarded with a chase birth. Honestly if you want to keep those that clinch a chase spot from doing cheating things at the end of a reg. season. Penalize both before the chase is set & in the chase. They did it to Carl Edwards a couple years back (wasnt the last race of reg. season though) Took points away from him during the reg. season & they took 3 points from him in the chase. if he made the chase. I just have to disagree with you. not just because I am a Ryan fan, but because you cant allow teams to cheat their way into the chase (playoffs) That would be my stance even if Tony spun out on purpose to get Ryan in the chase.


That was just a hypothetical, schmoopy. :roll: And I don't think even the most hardcore ryan newman fan would be naive enough to assume that ryan was winning the race with 100% certainty with 9 laps to go. anything could've happened, but nobody will ever know for sure. Even ryan's first reaction after the race was that the team blew it rather than 'OMG WE WERE ROBBED'

so my point with the penalties is that when you're dealing with razor thin margin differences and gray area judgement calls, can YOU honestly make the determination on how the results WOULD'VE stacked up? or do you go with what's on the results sheet?

If you're concerned with the fact that the cheaters get rewarded for manipulation, then just vacate the spots and strip all their owner points. They get no chase coverage and their sponsors get all the bad pub. Is that punishment enough?

On a side note, are we so quick to label martin truex jr a 'cheater' despite the fact that he could have just been a blind beneficiary? Now that a 'cheater' like logano got to keep his spot, a lot of people can make the argument that martin truex got shafted because he was in a similar situation. Are we going to start letting in 14 cars in now? When NASCAR decided they could pass the judgement on the hypothetical and start awarding spots based where drivers MIGHT'VE finished, they opened up a pandora's box.

well if you want to go down that road. I don't believe truex the driver knew anything during the race. IHowever the fact is Truex's team was involved, & the teams are what caused the penalties. Also if no yellow comes out truex is out of the chase. Wasn't even just one car trying to get Truex in the chase but multiple cars. Sure I can feel bad for Truex the driver, but the penalty was just. Like I said earlier. if tony spins to get Ryan in the chase. I would still agree with penalizing the 39 team. & I would still feel bad for Ryan. the lucky one in all of this is Logano who wouldn't have been in if no shenanigans went down. truex was never gonna be in the chase before the spin so while I can feel bad for him personally. I don't feel bad that he got knocked out of the Chase.
Just maybe Karma caught up to joey with the 1st race of the chase (if you believe that sorta thing)

With Joey even after the yellow from the spin. he gained 3 spots when they went green to get in the top ten. all three spots were given to him. (38, 55, 15) Nothing earned that last race for him.
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ndunn

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Post Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:37 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

Tony wouldn't have done anything to make a bad situation such as spinning or whatever to favor his team mate. When SHR was first formed and they hired Ryan someone asked Tony what he would do if Ryan did something to make sure Tony won. He said "I'd fire him as I don't play those games". This was asked five years ago.
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michaeljohn

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Post Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

i like how Joe is considered a cheater just because the 38 moved over to give him a spot, when that is done many of times through out the year when a teammate or driver of the same brand moves over to let them lead a lap or better yet only helps the "brand" at a plate race, that is manipulating the outcome, so get this, everyone cheats!
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:55 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

michaeljohn wrote:i like how Joe is considered a cheater just because the 38 moved over to give him a spot, when that is done many of times through out the year when a teammate or driver of the same brand moves over to let them lead a lap or better yet only helps the "brand" at a plate race, that is manipulating the outcome, so get this, everyone cheats!

to me it has nothing to do with the 38 or Joey. My issue was with MWR manipulating. what the 38 did or didnt do would be irrelivant if the 55 & the 15 doesnt pull off the track.
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eve

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Post Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:01 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

That Saturday Night at Richmond when Clint spun I wondered about it. But when Dale Jr. said it was the strangest thing he ever saw, I knew it was on purpose. Clint's "interview" was proof something was up. I didn't know about the 38 and 22 issue until later.

IMO this is what I think should have happened
1). MWR - agree with $300,000.00 fine, and penalties against General Manager, and probation until Dec 31, 2013. BUT I would have parked all 3 cars for the rest of the season and let the sponsors deal with what MWR did. Napa and 5 hour energy are looking at their agreements - there is a morals clause. At this point, this is the second time MWR has been busted for actions detrimental - 2007 - jet fuel in Mickey's carbonator 2013 - the spin to win. No one wants to believe Mickey would do something like this. His aw shucks, class clown personality has everyone snowed.

2). Ryan Newman and Jeff Gordon are put into the chase where they would have been if the spin had never taken place. If you have to freeze the field with 7 laps to go, so be it.

3). Joey - not at all a driver I like - he would have been in without the 38's help. Probation until December 31, 2013 was correct.

As I said, this is my opinion. I have loved this sport a long time. Dale Sr. was my driver and I am still a fan. I chose Tony after Dale's death because I liked his style of racing and his passion and his honesty. It didn't hurt that he spun Jeff Gordon out on pit road at the April race at Bristol 2001, Jeff dissevered it. What I don't like are liars. To me that is what Clint did that night and has continued to do to this day. What he did put Nascar and everyone involved under suspicion and that does not sit well with me. Some people have said Clint didn't have a choice, you don't say no to your boss. I disagree. Clint has a brain and knows what is right and wrong, he just didn't care. Maybe what I proposed was harsh, but in order to keep something like this from happening again, you have to make an example.

Nascar did what they felt was right and I support them in their decisions. They couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Clint spun, so if they had pulled him from the Chase, it could have been overturned on appeal. But they did act and did what they could. Adding Jeff was the right thing to do,. He was a victim in this just like Ryan.
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john yoho

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Post Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:14 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

Not only no but #### no. It has proven to me that what ever Brian France wants he gets. jeff had a decent season, yes, but had plenty of DNF's. Jamie McMurray had a good season too, was a wild card at Richmond with no DNF's but they didn't let him in. Seems to me that Rick Hendrick has Brian France in his pocket, no other reason JJ won 5 in a row, no one's that good.. Not even my man Smoke...
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TnGuy37144

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Post Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:01 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

NO he didn't earn it.....that's why we have a points system....why not let the next driver behind Gordon in also ....so no i don't believe he should've been allowed in

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Post Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

I just don't follow the logic in a lot of this thread.
First, of course Ryan was winning that race.
Second, Jeff deserves in.
The reason NASCAR has added/changed the rules is so that this type of situation won't occur any more. Ryan and Jeff would have made the chase on their DRIVING RESULTS from Richmond, had it not been for the cheating. So...you have to allow them both in once you make a stand on the circumstances and rules that allowed them to be knocked out, the cheating that is.

I applaud NASCAR on their actions concerning all this. They did the right thing, and that doesn't happen every time, so kudos to them.
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wolfgang

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Post Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:12 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

Ok, no more mr.nice guy,i''ll give it to yah straight!Jeff Gordon,stick a fork in Jeff-he's done! The only reason he got in the chase is because he's one of the most popular drivers and HMS sucks Nascars @ss ! The cheating b.s. has gone on forever and with whomever,the only reason this case is so "special"is because Jeff is so "special".Nascar is a joke and they got caught with their pants down so now again they try to play it off like no cheating goes on here and we won't tolerate it!!!! :?
MWR,Mikey says there is no rule that states you can't pit your cars whenever you want and Mikey is right.The intentional spin out by #15 was really the whole deal here,but evidently Nascar decided to side track that one.Nascar can't prove it,yet everyone else "knows" and "seen" it including "experts" drivers and c/c wtf !!!
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

wolfgang wrote:Ok, no more mr.nice guy,i''ll give it to yah straight!Jeff Gordon,stick a fork in Jeff-he's done! The only reason he got in the chase is because he's one of the most popular drivers and HMS sucks Nascars @ss ! The cheating b.s. has gone on forever and with whomever,the only reason this case is so "special"is because Jeff is so "special".Nascar is a joke and they got caught with their pants down so now again they try to play it off like no cheating goes on here and we won't tolerate it!!!! :?
MWR,Mikey says there is no rule that states you can't pit your cars whenever you want and Mikey is right.The intentional spin out by #15 was really the whole deal here,but evidently Nascar decided to side track that one.Nascar can't prove it,yet everyone else "knows" and "seen" it including "experts" drivers and c/c wtf !!!

So I guess since they are bringing in Harvick to SHR your I have no comment at this time is out the window huh!?
So then please tell me what you really think, only this time don't sugar coat it :mrgreen: Image :mrgreen:
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michaeljohn

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Post Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:53 am

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

eve wrote:That Saturday Night at Richmond when Clint spun I wondered about it. But when Dale Jr. said it was the strangest thing he ever saw, I knew it was on purpose. Clint's "interview" was proof something was up. I didn't know about the 38 and 22 issue until later.

IMO this is what I think should have happened
1). MWR - agree with $300,000.00 fine, and penalties against General Manager, and probation until Dec 31, 2013. BUT I would have parked all 3 cars for the rest of the season and let the sponsors deal with what MWR did. Napa and 5 hour energy are looking at their agreements - there is a morals clause. At this point, this is the second time MWR has been busted for actions detrimental - 2007 - jet fuel in Mickey's carbonator 2013 - the spin to win. No one wants to believe Mickey would do something like this. His aw shucks, class clown personality has everyone snowed.

2). Ryan Newman and Jeff Gordon are put into the chase where they would have been if the spin had never taken place. If you have to freeze the field with 7 laps to go, so be it.

3). Joey - not at all a driver I like - he would have been in without the 38's help. Probation until December 31, 2013 was correct.

As I said, this is my opinion. I have loved this sport a long time. Dale Sr. was my driver and I am still a fan. I chose Tony after Dale's death because I liked his style of racing and his passion and his honesty. It didn't hurt that he spun Jeff Gordon out on pit road at the April race at Bristol 2001, Jeff dissevered it. What I don't like are liars. To me that is what Clint did that night and has continued to do to this day. What he did put Nascar and everyone involved under suspicion and that does not sit well with me. Some people have said Clint didn't have a choice, you don't say no to your boss. I disagree. Clint has a brain and knows what is right and wrong, he just didn't care. Maybe what I proposed was harsh, but in order to keep something like this from happening again, you have to make an example.

Nascar did what they felt was right and I support them in their decisions. They couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Clint spun, so if they had pulled him from the Chase, it could have been overturned on appeal. But they did act and did what they could. Adding Jeff was the right thing to do,. He was a victim in this just like Ryan.



Joe already made the chase without the 38 help, so your statement is wrong....
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michaeljohn

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Post Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:57 am

Re: Yes or No, Did NASCAR get it right by adding Gordon to C

john yoho wrote:Not only no but #### no. It has proven to me that what ever Brian France wants he gets. jeff had a decent season, yes, but had plenty of DNF's. Jamie McMurray had a good season too, was a wild card at Richmond with no DNF's but they didn't let him in. Seems to me that Rick Hendrick has Brian France in his pocket, no other reason JJ won 5 in a row, no one's that good.. Not even my man Smoke...



JJ is that good, and the reason you gave for him winning is an excuse to make ya feel better because it bothers you that JJ is better than whomever you like. if nascar didnt want a repeat winner... they could have changed up the last 10 races when they started to see the 48 dominate them, but they did nothing,
I miss you Frehley........
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