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Some thoughts on tires

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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:35 pm

Some thoughts on tires

I was watching an open wheel roadcourse last year. trying to remember if it was F-1 or Indy cars. What to say it was indy cars but not sure.

Anyways. They had so many sets of hard tires & soft tires. (two different types anyways) They were allowed to use during the race. I thought it was interesting, because the teams would put on the different sets at different times, depending on their stratergy.

I think that would be a good idea in cup. Also would add to the startergy of the race. Say if you were allowed to use 3 sets of softer (faster tires) during a race.
So if during green flag stops you get lapped put on the faster tire in hopes of gaining your lap back, & always save a set for late race cautions & such. I could totally get into this idea. Someone in the back might try their tire earlier than other trying to gain track position & such. it would be a major headache for GoodYear probably, but hey! I cant help everybody LOL.
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HiddenHollow

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

Great idea, but I'll bet some of the under-funded teams would have trouble buying that many sets of tires.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:44 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

HiddenHollow wrote:Great idea, but I'll bet some of the under-funded teams would have trouble buying that many sets of tires.

Well in Cup I dont think they have a cap on how sets of tires you use anyways. & If they do now, then that takes care of that. Either way you would only be allowed a certain # of the faster tire, which would take the place of the other set of tires anyways. So the # of sets of tires used would still be the same. (just two different types)
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adny1030

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:29 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

I like the idea and it would make for some more interesting races. It would make for a more strategic race and hopefully elevate the competition even more.

There is a drawback and that is for the 39 team- Can't imagine TG getting this right when we can't even have the crew inflate the tires. Throw this into the mix and that crew would be a in deep doo-doo. :(
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HiddenHollow

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:17 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

OK, I just found this on howstuffworks (if that is considered a reliable source). The teams don't buy their tires, they lease them.

"­Interestingly, racing teams don't buy their tires. They lease them from Goodyear (the official tire supplier of NASCAR) on race day. Each team is allowed to lease 16 sets of four tires [source: Mackinnon]. That means that each NASCAR Sprint Cup team invests around $20,000 on tires alone for each race."

The full article I read can be found HERE.
"I'll wreck my mom to win a championship. I'll wreck your mom to win a championship." - Tony Stewart, November 17, 2011

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smoke14rulez

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:18 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

The "reds"(from their red sidewalls) are used only on road/street courses. You have to use at least one set of "reds" at some point in the race. They're softer and give more grip, but wear faster.(if I messed that up, Jamo'll fix it...if he sees this;)) I doubt it's work for the COT's...thet're too heavy and have a higher center of gravity. Think the '08 Brickyard 400, that debacle was due to a compound that was too soft for the COT. I think that's what you'd get if you tried to make a soft tire? Unless you went the other way and tried to make an "extra hard" tire...'course then you'd battle having any grip at all. ;)
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jamo14

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Post Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:14 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

Rulez is right about those indycar street/road course tire compounds. Some start out the race with the softer compound, to help wiggle around the 1st handful of turns & chicanes while they're still bunched up...then they switch to the harder compound that lasts longer (and gives the machine more speed) for their 1st (green flag) pitstop.

F1 doesn't have different dry pavement compounds, but they do have compounds for heavy rain,another for mist or sprinkles, and another for dry pavement. If you put the intermediates on too early (anticipating rain), they really fall off, especially if the sprinkling or mist goes away quickly.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:00 am

Re: Some thoughts on tires

Rulz they completely missed their mark at Indy. These cars have raced on softer compounds than they do now. They can make a softer faster compound than they use now. Where the softer tire falls off at the end instead of being so consistent as the tires now. I believe back when they screwed up at Indy, because it was "Indy" They tried to make the tire as fast as they could for the track speed, & didnt make it durable enough. because of the debacle at Indy doesnt mean they cant make a softer faster tire that falls off by the end of a fuel run. It used to be that way all the time, without problems. We could have yellow/white Lettered good years for the different style of tires. Thx Jamo & Rulz for explaining the Indy tire. I knew I seen it somewhere last year :D
Only allowing a couple sets of the softer tire, so they would have to figure out when to use them. Cup races are muchlonger than an Indy race.
Whether they do this or not, they have to put some give up back in the tires if you ask me. When Ryan won the NH race last year he changed left side tires only once the whole race. To me ( I was happy because we suck at 4 tire stops) that is rediculous. No way you should you be able to go half a race without changing tires. The tire is another reason we see it so hard to pass on all these different tracks.
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Smokeshow14

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:28 am

Re: Some thoughts on tires

I would like that idea but I believe the IRL only does that at road and street courses and for good reason. NASCAR could only really do this twice a year.
Last edited by Smokeshow14 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cup: 14, 1, 29, 88, 99, 11, 17, 39, 15, 5, 2, 16
NW: 7, 31, 3, 11, 60, 88, 12
Trucks: 9, 88, 3, 7, 17, 31
IRL: 10, 11, 12, 26, 3, 38, 27
RIP Dan Wheldon
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:44 am

Re: Some thoughts on tires

Smokeshow14 wrote:I would like that idea but I believe the IRL only that at road and street courses and for good reason. NASCAR could only really do this twice a year.

Why would nascar have to only use it this on RC's. They already can make a softer tire for every track they race on?
The only tracks I wouldnt do this on is the plate tracks. Tire management has never mattered on these tracks.
Never knew why IRL does it, but I like the idea. But even if nascar tried it on just RC's & short tracks, could increase the drama that Nascar & the TV people want.
Imagine driver A passing driver B becuase they are on the faster tire, but can he hold that position as the laps count down to the end, because the tire is gonna fall off to the more consistent tire.

Or we can simply have Driver B stays in front & drives away in clean air making the end of the race a snooze fest because driver A doesnt have enough grip to get around driver b since they are both on the hard tire. With these hard tires the only times we have passes are if the car behind the other is substantially better. Somewhat better cars cant complete the passes most of the time.
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Smokeshow14

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:55 am

Re: Some thoughts on tires

There is a difference between doing this at road courses and tracks where you enter the corner at 200 mph.

Goodyear has built such a durable tire for free of having another Indy debacle. Goodyear needs to build a tire that gives but at the same time won't blow out. If they can do that they can put the fun back in racing. I want to see a guy put fresh tires on and march through the field.
Cup: 14, 1, 29, 88, 99, 11, 17, 39, 15, 5, 2, 16
NW: 7, 31, 3, 11, 60, 88, 12
Trucks: 9, 88, 3, 7, 17, 31
IRL: 10, 11, 12, 26, 3, 38, 27
RIP Dan Wheldon
"Fight for Four"- Annalee
You got to have a big gigantic drum kit.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:09 am

Re: Some thoughts on tires

Smokeshow14 wrote:There is a difference between doing this at road courses and tracks where you enter the corner at 200 mph.

Goodyear has built such a durable tire for free of having another Indy debacle. Goodyear needs to build a tire that gives but at the same time won't blow out. If they can do that they can put the fun back in racing. I want to see a guy put fresh tires on and march through the field.

Amen
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smoke14rulez

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:10 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

Schmoopy1000 wrote:Rulz they completely missed their mark at Indy. These cars have raced on softer compounds than they do now. They can make a softer faster compound than they use now. Where the softer tire falls off at the end instead of being so consistent as the tires now. I believe back when they screwed up at Indy, because it was "Indy" They tried to make the tire as fast as they could for the track speed, & didnt make it durable enough. because of the debacle at Indy doesnt mean they cant make a softer faster tire that falls off by the end of a fuel run. It used to be that way all the time, without problems. We could have yellow/white Lettered good years for the different style of tires. Thx Jamo & Rulz for explaining the Indy tire. I knew I seen it somewhere last year :D
Only allowing a couple sets of the softer tire, so they would have to figure out when to use them. Cup races are muchlonger than an Indy race.
Whether they do this or not, they have to put some give up back in the tires if you ask me. When Ryan won the NH race last year he changed left side tires only once the whole race. To me ( I was happy because we suck at 4 tire stops) that is rediculous. No way you should you be able to go half a race without changing tires. The tire is another reason we see it so hard to pass on all these different tracks.


...they missed their mark @Indy 'cause the tire way WAAYYY too soft for the "diamond grind" surface. Point is, Indy cars and COT's are VERY different. The COT is much heavier and has a higher center of gravity = MUCH greater side load on the right side tires. I'm thinkin'(and this is just a guess) that there's a much smaller window with compounds...having a tire that gives optimal(or acceptable) grip versus optimal(or acceptable) wear? Meaning, because of the car, I'm not sure you could build a tire different enough that it would change anything? Remember in '08, there were many tire issues as Goodyear tried to get the compounds right. Remember Atlanta that year, everybody was complaining because that tire was too hard and the cars were sliding around the whole run.

I think that's why the IRL doesn't use the "reds" on circle tracks...I think the wear would be excessive, and THAT'S on lighter cars with a lower CG. I don't think it's a bad idea, just not sure it's possible...particularly with the COT.
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Schmoopy1000

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Post Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Some thoughts on tires

well thats the thing. They can already make faster (softer tires) that give up. They have done it with the COT. After Indy they partly knee jerked reaction, & partly because teams were upset losing races due to pit stratergy (4 tires, 2 tires, no tires) at the end of a race. news flash, Pit stratergy is stilll winning races. So they made a super durable tire that doesnt fall off during a fuel run.
So the possiblity is definitely there. (it has already happened) Now I am not saying push the envelope on how soft to make the tire. (like the hoosier debacle) Just something aa bit faster that falls off at the end. helll even if they juat stay with one type of tire, they have to put more fall off into them. the cars are so aero dependant now it kills the actual racing in most cases. A change in the tire would help the actual racing in my opinion. I just thought about the Indy thing & thought it could be a good twist as well.
I dont blame them for not wanting to use a tire in Indy car cirlce tracks. Those drivers are way more venerable. Also I had heard (now this was years ago so dont if still true) Indy cars because of all their downforce is like they weigh three times the amount of the actual weight of the car at full speed. Now that & the amount of grip the Indy cars have is a ton of stress on a tire. I would think Indy cars are harder on the tire than a Cup car. Except for when the cup cars slide their tires. it is rumored that if you could stand next to a cup car in a high speed corner, you could push it with your hand & spin them out. That is how little grip & on the edge those cars are.
The thing I keep saying, is they already haave the ablity to soften up the tires in a safe parameter for a cup car. Good year isnt making fast tires. Just what Nascar wants. I am actually starting to hear drivers complain about the tire recently. (being to durable) Now everyone pits for track position, not tires.
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